In case this was not a rhetorical question, There will be a day of reckoning. But it would be encouraging if they did. The Lord had more to say about gall through His servant Jeremiah: Jeremiah 23:13-17 This is not a measure of faith. Thats an interesting thought. God,I am running for your heart until my soul is on fire? standing. Finding out who and what Robert Morris really is inherently taints many others on the religious and political right, thereby making me question all my prior values and decisions. Are we really talking about clerical influence/position/authority and money? If the congregation, the pew sitter as you say, cannot do it what does that leave? I fully understand the depression and near paralysis that comes after leaving a cult. The women say as part of the program they were taught to believe that they were possessed by the devil, and have since been forced to receive years of professional psychiatric treatment. I believe these churches are using Driscoll as fallen pastor insurance. what is a person supposed to do? People who are not religious, like me, are generally skeptical of religious institutions and their goals. You cant speak in tongues? James River Church Engaged Employer Overview 38 Reviews 63 Jobs 26 Salaries -- Interviews 9 Benefits 47 Photos 12 Diversity Follow + Add a Review Employee Review See All Reviews ( 38) 2.0 Former Employee, more than 3 years Leadership not always what they portray Mar 2, 2017 - Anonymous Employee in Ozark, MO Recommend CEO Approval Elders thatthat sin are to be rebuke before all, that others also may fear. Let me look it up. Consider how he attained it fleecing the flock. That would be terrible. Sam, I sincerely hope that nothing Ive written ever makes you rethink your relationship with God. here is a bit of what i could type out as he was speaking, would love to see a transcript of it instead of having to listen to it though. It probably did. I also have recently spoken to another ministry leader involved in orphan care in Africa. i have met people that have told me that they went to gateway (and other churches that are similar) but no longer do without ever saying why. You might be interested in this post from this recent post at Stand Firm, an Anglican blog, regarding Hillsong. His Father owns the cattle on a thousand hills and Jesus never asked a single person for a single penny. Q. I guess Calvinism for these guys means never having to take personal responsibility. I think it underestimates those believers in the pews who are, themselves, filled with the Spirit and do exhibit the fruit of Galations 5. He cannot or will not go back to school to become a plumber or a dentist or what ever, so he has to figure out how to get back into the Christian preaching / book writing / convention circuit. Same goes for singles. any way i am still wrestling with my view of my world and churches and like you mentioned, gun shy when i go into a new church. if mark is truly repentant than this sermon is him explaining how he persecuted and publicly stoned stephen to death which was actually mark stoning Jesus to death publicly and with no remorse. I asked people who were about as famous (if that is what you call it) as him what they thought. "But we can speak and encourage people to vote in terms of the morality of the issue.". also, i have been ousted from 6 churches already and at first i took it as me being in error and not able to understand the bible or what the Lord had called me to be like but now i am able to see that i can trust the still small voice inside and the Holy Spirit to give me understanding of the scriptures without having to run it by a pastor somewhere. I hope you encourage them to visit TWW. "Addressing this topic or the subject of the upcoming vote from the pulpit is not against the law in this country, although it may be in the future," Lindell said in the sermon. i have met people that have told me that they went to gateway (and other churches that are similar) but no longer do without ever saying why. Not a fan but many are. Mars Hill Church was ending its relationship to Agathos. Yes, I have been witnessing first hand over the years of the Calvinism in the AG. We would love for you to join us for a service. And probably they wont. No I wouldnt allow someone who was an embezzler or criminal back in charge, of course not. Ill talk to you more tomorrow, so dont forget to check back! A large percentage of modern evangelical mega-churchianity is beyond comprehenshion. mode. Our model gets smarter over time as more people share salaries on Glassdoor. Otherwise, its authentic shunning for you. Ironically, in giving this speech, Lindell was doing just that shooting the wounded. 99,693 were here. Theres a persistent rumor that hes going to bring his show here to Phoenix. Even then he will need what was badly missing from Mars Hill, real accountability. Blech!! Here are just some of the phrases he uses as he shares the story. The carpet was worn. Che was tots adorbs. until he apologizes to the elders and church members he hurt so badly i dont think there will be a true repentance that God can use. He repeated what he has said in the past: He believes if the issue is to be addressed it should be done at the federal level. http://mercysurvivors.com/2014/03/06/mercy-ministries-peru-309k-and-no-cherry/#more-1348. Pews are in the old megas. Why am I concerned? Because for me, it is the center of the practice of Christianity, and I had missed it. Of course, we have yet to determine whether there has been a real change in Mark Driscoll's life. You have a holy responsibility to lead your flock in truth and light yet you are deliberately misleading them. Driscoll does not meet the biblical qualifications to be a preacher. He screamed and swore. Yeah, these are the things that keep me from believing that MD has changed. As for my outsider perspective he seems like someone youd want as a pastor if you wanted to get big and have lots of revenue streams. Now the shock will be realizing how far theyve strayed from those virtues. Driscoll, IMHO, is completely unsuited for any position of authority. I want to know what is so bad about the church and why people dislike it. Lindell doesnt have a real active blog, his third from last entry is titled: Those ones arent even on the path. It is possible for someone who is engaged in homosexual behavior to stop.". I told him that. The reason why I answered like that is because most of this stuff goes on because the pew sitters are not actively involved in the church operatons and are not demanding openess and transparancy of staff and leaders. ATB He can be forgiven. Matthew 27:33-34 they had a scandal about their homes for helping young women also, financial corruption-ish and not letting the women get outside counseling. Driscoll has used this vague parallels to himself many times, framing the sermon in the context of his own life with the lives of other noble characters, most notably Jesus. They didnt fail. I think MD needs a season in the wilderness to really think things out. Why should we bother with reading history or learning the truth? Even if youre looking at Christianity from a strictly business like mindset, I dont see how its good marketing or profitable to do the sexist shtick. . He essentially called the Driscoll victims liars and persecutors. He was not participating in stonings. of course i have no idea really what is driving mark driscoll but thats what i think it might be. Its so weird and twisted, but people eat it up. Some are stronger and more capable of speaking out and as we feel able to I believe that we must. COuld someone explain how its supposed to work without a leader . How can a reasonable person look past that? I am sorry if anything I wrote about Che offended you. in the first years of the organinazation they didnt do anything without consensus because they believed that if they were a group of believers the Lord would make them of the same agreement on specific issues and if they didnt reach agreement there was a reason that needed to be looked at. He is young and using Jesus is all he knows. (KY3) - OZARK, Mo. @ Gus: You make an interesting comparison. I find it telling that it contains 41 mentions of "sin," "sinners" and "sinfulness.". I believe this is the 2 Thessalonians time period so it will become increasingly more difficult to avoid false teachers. kudos to the hosts of the aussie tv show that made brian huston look at the absolute facts and rediculousness of his supporting (and paying for) an american mega pastor who is well known in christian circuits I use the term rediculous because I dont want to be mean or judgmental, but I believe that brian was all for helping mark get back in the saddle until it cost him some publicity. I study a lot of the giant DFW megas but most of my data is still filtered through the Gateway lens. Ok, so i am seeing that a lot of people do not like this church. i hope people will go back and read the whole thing if they havent yet. The authentic community I was referring to is the it term/concept in megas for 2015. starts with: It was titled "A Biblical Look at Human Sexuality." 11 The Lord told him, Go to the house of Judas on Straight Street and ask for a man from Tarsus named Saul, for he is praying. But we don't know yet for sure. If a pastor says anything positive about another pastor, and that other pastor has a history of patterns of behavior and teachings that are destructive it is wise to ask pastor 1 if he has checked him out before he promotes him. pure grace are you or have been in similar situation to stephen? I have learned much on this blog and often from your comments which are intelligent and insightful. I would think that rehabilitation for him would be finding a job where he was not the boss and not the teacher. Even a brief check on MD online will turn up 67 billion pages with examples of his vulgar or obnoxious and bullying behavior, including several blogs by ex Mars Hill members. It came swiftly and with great effect. I dont beleive that for a moment. instead i find now that the Lord uses other christians to confirm things He has shown me, instead of the Lord teaching me things that others say i should believe and me just accepting them as the word of God because the guy has a position or written a book or is promoted by other pastors. Having heard MDs messages for several years now, I believe he is trying to lead people into thinking its about him. So, I read what he wrote, I listened to his speeches, sermons, etc. They will promise to give you an authentic community to do life with. Church membership requires showing your W-2 and mandatory tithe In the case of Chandler, the fudgy language in the apologies does not instill much confidence that the root has been exposed so that it can be dug out. I take it to mean: Don't feel so bad, there are whole lot of other people hell-bound, too. In a statement to the Ozarks Independent, James River Church said it has taken temperatures at the door, sanitized its children's areas and common areas multiple times per day, provided masks. The emails we received were similarly written. By and large, our local churches have been great examples of staying emotionally connected while protecting one another in this pandemicthis example does not do those congregations justice., I stg we're the dumbest country in world. I'm in on that. Just typing this has made me a bit queasy. Treating the congregation as customers is pure evil, IMO. I couldnt get through Marks sermon.so what was coming up for me during Pastor Lindells introduction was the idea of the Karpman Drama Triangle: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karpman_drama_triangle (Persecutor/Rescuer/Victim roles that people bounce around in during unhealthy interactions.) News flash: Jesus is the hero of scripture. i dont have that conscience when i am running off on my own and not caring about serving Jesus, but instead caring about how big my kingdom is or how big an influence i am making or how much press i got this week or how many people got baptized. Pokin Around: 'Cussing pastor' to preach at James River Church what they are. We are dedicated to making a difference in the lives of people through relevant teaching, heartfelt worship, and amazing kids & youth programs. The last time Robert Morris met and greeted anyone as part of his service he still had his braces/retainer on. Your mistake is in assuming that Driscoll was there to deliver a sermon. It is definitely not where all leadership and vision is deferred to one man, and it is definitely not authoritarian. Help keep The Christian Post free for everyone by making a one-time donation today. If a pastor says anything positive about another pastor, they have something to hide. Forgiveness does not address that issue at all. It was dingy and old. mark chose to step down not mark was removed. Mark begins to describe what happened with Stephen in Acts 6:8-15. I cannot respect or support these men knowing that they revere such a man as a pastor. Lindell hit two main points: the Bible is clear in its condemnation of homosexuality as sin and the ordinance is an infringement on the religious rights of Christians who believe so. this is even a bigger bad root than the bad root of complimentarianism and authorityism. Because for me, it is the center of the practice of Christianity, and I had missed it. Mega churches are asking people to step back from the reality of how they effect people and just go along with a bunch of rules and covenants and christianeese and let them stay in their positions cause their friends say they are changed. Totally. What I dont get is why Hillsong and Assemblies of God (James River Church), who have extremely different views on women in the church would even consider someone like Mark Driscoll as a special speaker. IMO, They are still who they are. Working at James River Church: 40 Reviews - Indeed I think the guys a jerk and theres plenty of evidence out there for it. He was a mass murdering thug. Sex abuse inquiry to hear how churches responded to allegations against his father, Frank Houston, and two other men. It was clear to me that Marks attendance had the potential to divert attention from the real purpose. I prefer dealing with an honest atheist (and I know a lot of those) to dealing some self-professing christians. As I said, I am not a fan, but I can see the appeal of *his image,* from way back in the late 60s when posters of him 1st started appearing in college dorms. The disciples send him off to Tarsus and after that-there was peace for a time in the churches in Judea, Galilee and Samaria.:o). In February of 2007, Mark Driscoll preached a sermon that included raising funds for Agathos. There are plenty of people within the Christian faith that have their own issues with mega churches but people outside of it especially do. If a pastor makes a statement denying allegations, it might be that his words and patterns of behavior, actions dont match. This is largely shielded from television audiences who only view a heavily edited 22 minute message. Interestingly, he chose the title of his message to be 'Paul the Forgiven' and goes on to say that Paul has a name change because of a life change. (figuratively)) Later he show us all how it was done. shuning is not always done professionally as in TVC but so often done whisperingly in churches but the effect is the same to the person shunned. Also it is not where you sit in rows and hear a weekly lecture. I think Dr Fundy left out the irony/sarcasm tags introduced with HTML 5.5. Same deal with Driscoll, just a different sound track. Working at James River is never be boring because of the mission that you are pursuing and the amazing things that you get to be a part of. I find that when the Lord is using my mouth it is never vulgar or rude. there is a scripture somewhere that says i wont speak against Gods annointed, which was david re saul i believe, and people have used this (or churches have used this to keep people quiet) as a reason to never say anything about church abuse. Lydia on Sat Jun 13, 2015 at 12:48 You are doing exactly what you accuse the bloggers of. Whats the worst import/export that youve seen? CCHD encourages individuals who were present at the high-capacity event over the weekend to monitor for symptoms of COVID-19 for 14-days from the event date and seek medical attention if symptoms develop., Church officials defended themselves in a statement issued to KYTV-KSPR, noting that despite what the images show, we take seriously the safety and health of those who attend our services.. The problem is that the average pew-sitter has no idea what things a leader should be judged by, and they merely judge based on either looks, speaking ability, or how fun the service is. How can they do that? I think older people ignored the bad boy Driscoll because he seemed to be reaching the young people. Because 12 years ago Walter Salles made an awesome movie about him called The Motorcycle Diaries starring the gentle heartthrob Gael Garcia Bernal as Che. So far I define church as more what it isnt rather than what it is. Im not saying that I don't believe anyone, I really just want to learn the other side of this argument. We are believing this 5-day event will change your life! But Peter rebuked him for his motives and told him to repent of his wickedness and told him he was gall of bitterness and in the bondage of iniquity.. They are not good for him, and he not good for the people he leads. For a number of reasons Texans dont want to say bad things about a church no matter how many people are being hurt. Its all PR spin, because they got caught with their (or, pardon the metaphor, MDs) pants down. @ Abi Miah: Mark was one cog in a system that should never have been in place. They were perceived as mediators between the person and Christ. Do I hope they change? The problem is that the average pew-sitter has no idea what things a leader should be judged by, and they merely judge based on either looks, speaking ability, or how fun the service is. And Ive certainly heard many tales of people who were awful people moving onto ministry later on in life. i was looking for my link to Rob Smiths orphanage and found that he has recently posted a great response to those propping up Mark Driscoll. ), Warren Throckmorton quickly put up a post on this development and featured the following video. In his introductory remarks, he spoke of Marks kindness, humility, and genuine interest in people. A grunge rock Lord Byron mad, bad and dangerous to know. But, as you said, there is no substitute for a work of the Holy Spirit. In Damascus there was a disciple named Ananias. ), Odd how we often tend to read these things as definitive acvounts, when in reality, there are hints of many other things that go unmentioned. . that young man is in jail, he didnt receive a huge sentence and is receiving a great outpouring of care and compassion from the community. Active homosexuals will not make it into heaven, Lindell said in the sermon. (This was all before the sex sermons and book.) "And how many knownot everything you read on the internet is true". Its meant only to address the deception of certain megas. I know, that sounds horribly arrogant but I lacked it in buckets for years. When and where did this start? I completely understand why you are so skeptical. Far as I can tell Driscoll is arrogant, a lover of money, unholy, not above reproach, etc. I need to talk to the president, he may be unaware what some of his professors are teaching. Vulgarity and filth get fed to us little by little until we hardly notice weve ignored those first red flags and become part and parcel of the heresy. Your facts are a bit off, beginning with the meaning of Che. I am no fan of his, but there are some big holes in your acvount of his life. vengance is where you make someone pay. Do your part with the people in your life, give to your church, beyond that have a global heart for widows, orphans, the poor and those in need, I am going to ask you to support some widows and orphans in Africa, We have an orphanage, we have a villagemembers of Mars Hill have actually moved there to take care of widows and orphans.. Vulgarity and filth get fed to us little by little until we hardly notice weve ignored those first red flags and become part and parcel of the heresy. All rights reserved. He further states: A door was closed to who I was and a door was opened to who I became. I can't help but wonder whether Driscoll is talking about Paul or himself. Its all he does. Like I said, I dont want to get into an argument here. No one except lemmings following blindly to where the MoG leads believes them when they say that they only learned about certain facts recently. Some great insights there, Bob. All allegation deserve to be investigated with openess and transparancy. I dont think people that have fallen for false teachers are stupid, i think instead it reflects the degree of deceit in the false teachers and the seriousnes of the manipulations being used. According to the Pastor John Lindell, Driscoll has spoken there on three other occasions. Associating with Driscoll might make them feel younger and edgy. The church has spawned countless church plants, charities and conferences. I see him as a conference speaker on a different circuit. None of them see anything wrong with this. stephen is suffering for doing right. (KY3) - James River Church responded Monday to complaints after social media images show little social distancing and few masks at its Christmas celebrations. So true. Newer ones have theater seating or individual chairs. All he has to do is say "I repent" and it has to be forgiven and forgotten or we are the meanies. Is there a third way that I have overlooked? he smiles and there is love in his heart. If after many years of that, he wrote a book about how God brought about change within, Id be interested in reading it. I believe in forgiveness, but cautious about putting such folks back on the platform. Why would anyone seek to admire and celebrate a man who plotted to kill millions of innocent American civilians? I have a young friend who was totally enamored with him. Until Mark repents of his Peasant Princess series along with its cartoon, and his Esther series, and his man stay-at-home man fail rants, the only sermon I will listen to of his and his supporters is John 3:16. . Its much harder to leave that way. If so you may be onto something. I felt like an idiot after I said that. Dont give into his deception. http://www.nancyalcorn.com/search?updated-min=2008-01-01T00:00:00-08:00&updated-max=2009-01-01T00:00:00-08:00&max-results=21 (I saw a guy do this on a live stage in England once, on a YouTube video. Pouring what, exactly? I was shocked and deeply saddened to see photos from the James River event over the weekend. You need to check yourself Lindell then apologize and repent. This is why I said above I dont think Driscoll should even be allowed to go on speaking engagements, sell Christian books, or anything involving Christianity. full of manly manness and praise of human strength and wisdom and all the attributes mark has himself. James River Church Online - Christian Church - Springfield, MO Sincerely want to know what the alternative is. . I have heard Marks message several times now and have some concerns. mark is finally preaching more accurately who Jesus is and the fact that salvation is found in Jesus but then he goes off into marks interpretation of the bible as usual. Thats right, the head pastor no less! The resistance is to Jesus. (Note I did not diagnose) I do believe seen in that light, it makes it simpler to see how he gets by with it and why some who also make their living in similar ways are promoting him. Clear All United States - All Cities I started to ask myself, If Christ is present in someones life, and therefore the Spirit, will not God, in his infinite power, begin to produce those things in that person? And I began to wonder if Mark Driscoll even possessed the Spirit of God. . i found it impossible to take advantage of people, i found that if i hurt someone even unententionally i couldnt sleep until i made it right. i want to again put a human face on what Mark Driscoll and others in Acts 29 insist on keeping free of anything but CEO Business speak and mistakes that were made. Like God might show up. kinda like a person who has been abused i think, they sometimes have to get past that people may judge them for being stupid for falling for it, or they have to reconcile with the results of them speaking out, shunning, slander ie: the church calls them heretics because they dont attend anymore. If so you may be onto something. Then you can better understand the depths of this deception. If we were after money we would need to time our exit before Driscoll pulled the roof in again. jesus example they put a robe on him a mockery of his kingship. Not much time has passed since he stepped down. This one was different. My old church Gateway has atmosphere teams in services to emotionally manipulate members and visitors. Humility? One needed them because they were somehow spiritually qualified (?) John Lindell has spoken. notable pastors have been pouring into his life. . Trump: If you put me back in the White House, 'America will be a free nation once again', The Gospel Coalition takes down 'Sex Won't Save You' article; Rick Warren calls for apology, Wife of pastor killed by reckless driver breaks down in testimony, CPAC: Vivek Ramaswamy warns of 3 secular religions, proposes 'national revival' not separation, From a progressive Christian antagonist to an orthodox Christian advocate, In Haiti, big money for orphanages can endanger children, 7 signs of failed Christian leadership in business, My agonizing question after Nigeria's presidential election, Ukraine war exposes weaknesses in Russia and the West, LA County clears John MacArthurs megachurch in COVID-19 outbreak probe, Calling it persecution by public policy, hundreds of Oregon Christians protest COVID-19 restrictions, 'Churches should suspend services during pandemic.'